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Friday, 13 June 2014

REBUTTING THE EXCLUSIVE BRETHREN'S REBUTTALS.

I used to enjoy debating the 'Brethren'. I used to love to pull them up on their inconsistencies and their outright dishonesty. Their deluded dishonesty. But today they have gone from just pulling down the shutters on their closeted world to a contrived barrage of manipulated lies - written by professional spin doctors to Brethren orders - and designed to paint a picture of worldly compliance in all manner of things. There's only one problem with this. It is still untrue. It is still dishonest of them. Let's take their latest rebuttals of a number of points given bythem in haughty disapproval of a recent article in the media.

They say - "The Brethren (PBCC) do not have a set of rules or creed to follow."

The Truth - They do. There is a huge list of things they are not allowed to do. Sure they don't have an official 'Rule Book'. But if you look at the Bruce Hales Ministry Index Book - it liststhousands of things that are allowed and not allowed and reasons along with scripture and verse justification in some cases is given for the ruling. It is one of the most comprehensive religious 'Rule Books' on earth!

They say -Many Brethren are employed by non-Brethren businesses.

The Truth - show me one! I was thrown out for refusing to work for a Brethren business - but had to get out due to poor treatment. They threw an 18 year old out on the street - penniless! And there were hundreds like me. So if you ARE allowed to work for non-Brethren businesses - let me know for sure so I can sue the bastards for wrecking my life over this exact issue!

They say - They do stay in hotels and motels - but generally rely on the hospitality of fellow Brethren members.

The Truth - I remember getting into dreadful trouble with another young 'brother' for staying at a hotel for one night. The truth is - it never happens. Well - not unless they all go out and stay at a motel/hotel for a night to give their rebuttal a chance of truth.

They say- They consciensciously visit the graves of their loved ones.

The truth. They don't. I've never witnessed it even once when I was in and I am frequently in the Brethren sections of two cemeteries and have never seen a Brethren member there in over 40 years. I distinctly remember being told when young that we do not visit cemeteries after a funeral service has taken place. 'We don't 'glorify' death.'

They say - Many Brethren undertake post secondary education studies and students are encouraged to continue formal education.

The truth- is in the detail. Firstly it is a 'withdrawable' offence to attend a University for any of their young people. Bruce Hales their leader - said that if his kids wanted to go to Uni - there would be no place for them at his table. That means - they'd be kicked out.  Secondly- no female member would be encouraged to undertake a degree by correspondence or at a Further Education campus. If they can - then show me one. Just one! Better still - show me one Brethren member who has obtained afull degree in the past 20 years. I was told when I wanted to study architecture that "We do not undertake tertiary studies anymore. You must work for a Brethren business" - which  usually meant menial work. Or sales. That ruling has been in place since 1971 at least.

They say -Many Brethren churches have windows.

The truth - again, show me one. One that you can see through like every other window in the world. I am surrounded by Brethren churches and not one has anything resembling a window as such. They do not have windows. They do not want their members looking out during a church service nor do they want the world looking in.

They say - regarding role of women - that they are fully involved and give out hymns and such.

The truth. Women are expected to be 'subject'. They do not speak in church services apart from the solitary task of announcing a hymn number - and do not take a leading role of any kind. Where most churches today have women pastors or vicars- no Brethren women are allowed to do such a thing. If they did - they would be ruled 'in-subject' and thrown out. They are supposed to do menial tasks at churches such as baking and cleaning. That's it. It's not even a grey area. They will bang on about a woman's role in the home and in their businesses - but again - show me one woman who is allowed to stand and deliver a gospel reading or to make a comment in one of their church services. It does not happen. It is not allowed to happen.

They say - they are diligent in ensuring that suitable care and compassion is extended to persons who have left the church.

The truth. Categorical bullshit! Dishonest statements like this offend and wound all those who know that this is not the case and never has been. If this is true- why did I spend my first two nights -after I was expelled from their church- in a bus shelter? I have not received one cent in assistance nor one phone call from anyone senior among them asking how I am faring. In over 40 years. To top it off they take your inheritance too! This is a blatant lie - they may have changed their rule on this in the past few months to support this longstanding lie - but it is still an enduring lie. And I and hundreds - if not thousands of others - can attest to this. We are dead to them. There is no other way to describe it. How come I haven't enjoyed any sort of relationship with members of my family at their insistence for over 40 years? Better still - if you want real hard proof - type in 'Exclusive Brethren' in You Tube. You can actually see it happening there.

They say - that their Women's dress lengths are a matter of personal choice.

The truth - Rubbish! A good way to test this would be for one to be seen with a dress that is 4 inches above the knee. Or in a pair of slacks. It will never happen. It used to be worse though a few years ago. Women were withdrawn from for NOT wearing a 'token' - a strip of velvet across their head when they went out in public. I saw many disciplined over this myself. The 'token' then became a head scarf 35 odd years ago - and heaven help you if you went out without one. Their older members religiously wear them although the younger ones have learned ways around the issue and wear fascinators and suchlike. No woman is allowed to wear jeans or slacks because they are expressly forbidden. It is only a recent phenomenon that the younger women are allowed to trim their hair. They are forbidden to wear it short though. The lie is in the depth of the 'personal choice'. They have little if any choice in these issues - and any 'sister' wearing a dress that was deemed too short would be thrown out immediately if she refused to do as she was told. As a result - the attrition rate among young women is not insignificant. Many leave after they have tentatively formed secret relationships with men outside - whom they have met through business dealings or suchlike. I can think of three cases local to where I live. One even absconded with a worldly teacher at a Brethren school which must smart a bit.

They say - their young people are completely free to marry whom they want to. There is no network for matching up younger people around the globe.

The truth- Not quite right. They do have photo albums so young people can see who is around the place and 'available.' But any 'choice' that was not agreed to by a leading brother or even the world leader himself is not going to happen. And forget anything interracial. It is strictly not allowed. Nor would anyone who is deaf- be allowed to marry a non-deaf person. I witnessed both cases being refused myself. Some brothers who have been the subjected to the  sudden death of their spouse and still have children - are practically forced to marry again - fast and local. This rarely works but there is no escape clause here. Of course they won't admit this - because the subjects would be turfed out if they agreed.

They like to say on their web sites that they have no divorces.This is actually rubbish. If a husband or wife is 'dealt with' - the church insists on divorce. If there are children involved these days - they simply turn a blind eye to the whole situation as they now know it would attract to much hostility in the press. The truth remains- they themselves have caused many divorces -where they have forced couples to separate if one was not in the church any more. They then turn the children away from the 'outed' parent with the result that they never see them again. I sent a father some pictures of his kids and their kids the other day. He had never seen them in 40 years and was not aware of the existence of his own grandchildren. Rebutt that Exclusive Brethren!  


So - the Brethren continue to lie to protect their 'position'. But they will issue rebuttals to try and make themselves look good and normal. The trouble is - they are NOT normal. They do hurt people. They do destroy families. They do destroy young people's ambitions and lives in some cases. And they do continue to lie about it!


35 comments:

  1. We continue to await any sign of an apology from the recently rebranded PBCC for the years of carnage they have caused within our close families, our educations, our careers and indeed in some cases, the mental breakdowns precipitated by their visits to our houses so many years after we had left.

    I, for one, am looking to be compensated by the PBCC for the above list of offences and many others (desecration of funerals, damage to property.........I could go on) so that I can see a spark of contrition shown enabling me to move on in life and see them in a slightly better light than I do now. I don't even need the money, but what else do they have to offer and why are they so obsessed by the accumulation of it?

    At this moment in time the detriment and harm they have caused many, stands testament to a seriously deranged cult, whose behaviour must be witnessed to be believed.

    We are half way through the year of probation the Charity Commission have granted them, yet I don't see a single sign of the Commissioners requirements being met.

    Mark R Elliott

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  2. These quotes are all extracts from “The Heresies of The Plymouth Brethren” by James C L Carson written in 1883 !, demonstrating that deception, double speak, false hoods, lying and hypocrisy are endemic and institutionalised within the movement.

    The current Exclusive Brethren PBCC and their lying rebuttals are simply and extension of those underlying endemic characteristics

    - “The outside Christian must get enough to attract him; but he must be really in fellowship before the genuine opinions of the Plymouths can be placed before him in a form capable of being understood. If the sentiments were put in language which was meant to be interpreted on honest principles, any man of ordinary understanding could comprehend them; but in order that the uninitiated may not be frightened from the system by the terrible opinions which they are afterwards obliged to imbibe, a thorough plan of double dealing must be adopted. If such a course would disgrace men of the world, it is surely nothing short of disgusting when used by men calling themselves Christians”

    - “No man can really help on genuine Christianity, by passing with the public for one thing, when in reality he is another”

    - “The principle seems to be almost universally acted on, that any imaginable sort of argument will so in religious affairs, no matter whether it has sense to rest on or not”

    - “It is an awful thing to twist Scripture to the support of a system, and thus be guilty of “handling the Word of God deceitfully”

    - “Many parties imagine, because the Plymouths have no professed Confession of Faith, that they have no regular system of belief, but this is a great mistake. They not only have a very complete system, but they are as tyrannical as Rome in keeping their followers to it. Although the Christian public cannot divine what their system is, it is all perfectly understood by those who are thoroughly initiated into it”

    - “In place of trying to make everything plain and specific to the eye of the Christian public, the Darbyites have managed to cloak their opinions by using language in a Jesuitical sense, and the consequence is, that few of the parties who have hitherto tilted with them, seem to have been able to discover the peculiarities of the sect, or yet thoroughly to expose and overturn their obnoxious sentiments”

    - “The public get the choice things, whilst the peculiarities are kept for the benefit of those who are gradually drawn into the mysteries of this most decided sect of all the sects. I ask, Is this fair? Is it honest? Are they ashamed of their peculiarities? or are they well convinced that, if these peculiarities were fully known, the hair of their hearers heads would almost be made to stand upon end, and the preachers would soon be left alone in their glory ? It is very easy to find out the real sentiments of a straightforward man; but the double-dealing of the Plymouths makes it difficult to get at their opinions”

    There are many many other quotes from this book and many other books, that can demonstrate the deceitful ways of the Brethren.

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    Replies
    1. These critical statements about the Exclusives quoted by Brother Rev were written only a few years after J. N. Darby had come to the judgment that his branch of the Brethren movement had all gone terribly wrong. Twice he wanted to leave it, but was only persuaded to stay by his friend J. B. Stoney.

      If he thought it had gone terribly wrong then, he would be appalled to see what it has become now. If it was recognizably sectarian, false, deceptive and oppressive then, how much more so now!

      Delete
    2. Ian and his very bitter chum Rev,

      If you charming chums don't want to join or agree with the PBCC,
      I think it's fairly safe to say, nobody is going to force it.

      Now quit moaning and say cheese.

      Delete
    3. Welcome back! It's been quite some time since a PBCC Ltd member posted a typically inane comment. I don't want to join, or agree, with Islamic extremists, but that doesn't stop me commenting on this topic.

      Hope that helps...

      Delete
    4. 13 June 2014 19:52

      I think Rev and Ian are well blessed to have left the cult. Gorgonzola!

      Delete
    5. I suggest you Stay out of this Anon 19.52. your comments are a bit rich to say the least, "Chum!" yourself.
      thanks Chum! - nice try at winding everyone up.

      Delete
    6. If Anon 19.52 can't see through the HEB he/she is of extremely limited intelligence.

      Delete
    7. Larry wrote, “If Anon 19.52 can't see through the HEB he/she is of extremely limited intelligence.”

      I am not sure that is true, Larry. People heavily indoctrinated into a system from early childhood, culturally isolated from other views and lifestyles and given a restricted education in which there are large areas of compulsory ignorance, often learn to accept without question whatever their overlords tell them, even if their innate intelligence is entirely normal.

      The evidence of this is that some of those who swallowed the Taylor/Symington/Hales worldview well into adulthood and later escaped have in time become fairly normal, and now seem perfectly intelligent, well behaved, well adjusted, lovable people. Think of Roger Stott, Peter Harrison, Ngaire Thomas, Ron Fawkes, Rod Wilkins, Philippa Murray, Mark and Deb Ghinn, Mary Rose Douglas, Warren McAlpin, John McAlpin, Charles Barrett and many like them. They all swallowed the system into adulthood despite being highly intelligent. There are also examples of highly intelligent people (well, I can think of three) who are still in the Hales fellowship, possibly deluded or possibly trapped, but still inclined to defend it. There are plenty of Brethren children doing well in school exams, with no evidence of innate inability, most of whom will follow their peers and be absorbed into the Hales system, some of them learning to promote it and defend it.

      That is desperately sad in a way, but it also gives us grounds for hope. If Hales Brethrenism is the result of extremely limited intelligence, as some have suggested, it is pretty nearly incurable, but if it arises from other causes then there is hope for its victims. We have seen plenty of people who recovered from it, and we hope to see many more.

      Delete
    8. Anon 19.52....I may not want to join, or agree, with an extreme Islamic group (for example) however, this does not preclude me from criticising or commenting. This is known as debate and drawing attention to issues that the commentator regards as being harmful and morally wrong.

      Illuminator

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    9. Hi Ian,

      I think my comment springs from the fact that since very early days I always thought for myself. I have never been the type of person to go in for blind obedience! When the eating ministry came out I totally ignored it. When the ministry about pets came out I rehomed a cat from a rescue society - it did cure our problem with mice from neighbouring fields! And in any case I took the view that caring for God's creatures was a privilege.J.T.Jr I judged to be a foul mouthed drunk, which he was. The MOG dynasty I judged to be enriching themselves personally at the expense of the ordinary brethren. It is even more so the case today.
      Today's HEB are not only brainwashed but completely subjugated to the will of a fat Australian furniture salesman. Incredible they could fall for this! But they are effectively slaves - blind, obedient slaves.
      We do have the advantage of seeing the brethren from both the inside and the outside. So we have a more complete view than the poor souls who have only ever seen it from within.
      I know many ex brethren and the three most common comments I get from them looking back to their time in the EB are these:-
      1] We were brainwashed
      2] We were ruled by fear
      3] We feel so embarrassed to think that we swallowed all that nonsense which was served up as ministry
      But I do feel so, so sorry for their kids whose only future is to continue in servitude to the Hales family.

      Delete
    10. That is interesting, Larry. I only know a very few others, both male and female, who knew from childhood that EBism was not for them. They never swallowed the sectarian propaganda or accorded their leader any credibility. To my shame, I admit that I did swallow some of the sectarian propaganda, (“There is only one right position and we are it!”) but I was never impressed or convinced by Jim Taylor or Jim Symington. I never bought any of their ministry, much to the concern of some of my locals, although I bought the ministry of some other leading Brethren.

      Delete
    11. When I was 12 years old I warned my older sibling that he must be wary of being trapped by the EB's. Unfortunately, he asked to be accepted into fellowship (as was the practice in those days) subsequently leaving the group over twenty years later. I refused to go to meetings, as soon as I left school and became independent. Independence included having the freedom provided by a motorbike, in a rural area.

      I am not sure if this makes me especially gifted, or, maybe, just naturally rebellious!

      Delete
  3. It would be excellent if the PBCC, Bruce D Hales and, in the UK, Garth Christie were to set about looking into the detriment and harm that their group of Exclusive Brethren has meted out to so many people since the 1960s. The Church of England is currently undertaking such a task and someone in the PBCC recently declared to me, "We are just like the Church of England". Quite a number of PBCC members have agreed with their UK 'brother', Philip Hutchinson, and stated in public that the PBCC is a mainstream church, so it's reasonable to expect Bruce D Hales and Garth Christie to initiate a process where aggrieved former members will have their complaints acknowledged and researched, and where harmful situations will be properly amended.

    Ian is correct - there is documentary evidence that towards the end of his life J N Darby was aghast at the behaviour of some of his followers and thought seriously about leaving the Brethren.

    Last month I was in Corinth in Greece and found myself chatting to an English visitor in the forum where the apostle Paul was arraigned before Gallio, the proconsul, in 52 AD (look at Acts 18:12-17). We talked about the fact that three or four years later Paul wintered in Corinth and wrote his Epistle to the Romans there. We chatted about the huge influence that that one letter has had in western history - think of Martin Luther and John Wesley, among many who have been profoundly affected by that single letter - and we read the end of Romans 8 together.

    The PBCC has no credibility while their leaders and members say they believe in a God whose love can never be be lost - by death or "anything else in all creation" - and yet whose stringently applied James Taylor Jnr directives have meant that they have behaved unlovingly to so many people for so long.

    Written in Corinth two thousand years ago, Paul's message still resounds today to challenge the PBCC : "Owe no one anything, except to love one another ... Love does no wrong to a neighbour; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law". (Romans 12:8-10).

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  4. Anonymous13 June 2014 19:52 said "Ian and his very bitter chum Rev,

    If you charming chums don't want to join or agree with the PBCC,
    I think it's fairly safe to say, nobody is going to force it.

    Now quit moaning and say cheese"

    Of course people are being forced to need to try and agree, with beliefs of the exclusive brethren.For if they don't, the penalty thereafter is that they will be shunned and mistreated.

    Next thing, you may also be trying to tell us ,that no North Korean,is being forced to need to try and agree with the beliefs of Kim Jung-Un

    Nobody, (within their right mind) ever "chooses" to become North Korean.Or Exclusive Brethren either . It has more to do with their place of birth. And also includes the situation of family ties

    You Exclusive Brethren folk ,may need to sharpen your game ,and learn to wake up.This problem wont ever be likely to just disappear.

    And you can be sure, that we will make very sure that it doesn't.You folk will need to learn to change. No matter,whether you want to or not

    For

    The Times They Are a-Changin

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  5. Yes Ian .Even wise men and women, can become foolish enough to swallow all sorts of rubbish.And can sometimes even react and act most stupidly

    And this is why freedom of speech is also something that is quite important.Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely

    I make no claim to be intelligent.But yet a number of personal experiences i have had, have helped teach me, how intelligence can sometimes also become like it's become someones very worst enemy.And in those situations, the very worst part about that is, then knowing how its best to go about trying to get the highly intelligent person,to even be prepared to even see it,so as to then also become prepared to admit to it

    For instance.How many times have some extremely wise men and women,happened to make some very grave mistakes,that had then cost many lives in wars.Sometimes because they were unprepared to care to listen to other people

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  6. Fortunately the HEB are condemned to die out anyway. There cannot be more than about 10/12,000 families worldwide, many of them genetically connected. Raises the issue that breeding will have to stop as the gene pool gets ever more limited. To survive they need to attract new blood. And no outsider in their right minds is going to join, so the whole sorry system will certainly self destruct. Good.

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    Replies
    1. I agree, Larry, that the Hales fellowship probably does not have what it takes to survive indefinitely in its present form. It depends too much on tax concessions, falsehoods, information control and denial of human rights. It can’t recruit new members, so it also depends on breeding with a limited gene pool, and its cultural isolation is at least as big a danger as its genetic isolation. The restrictions on education and access to information also mean that few of them fully understand their predicament or have the ability to do much about it.

      The electorates, the legislatures, the governments and the judiciary in most of the countries where the Brethren operate have become much more aware of the abuses of religion and less tolerant of it. The process of developing legislation to protect the rights of children has still a long way to go, but going it is, and only in one direction. I can think of about fifteen new limits to religious freedom that have recently been introduced or are in the process leading to it, several of them relevant to Brethrenism.

      Then in the age of the Internet, mobile phones, broadcasting, podcasts, email, You Tube, Facebook, bulletin boards and Twitter, information flows freely in all directions, so it is almost impossible for the leadership to keep the membership uninformed, and equally difficult to prevent outsiders from knowing what goes on within the fellowship. If these communication methods had all been around in Jim Taylor’s time, his cult would probably not have survived the light of day.

      But self-destruction is only one of the ways in which cults come to an end. Some of them split by a series of schisms until none of the splinter groups has the critical mass needed to be self-sustaining. Some of them disband voluntarily, particularly after the death of their guru, or sometimes when their guru has been found guilty of a serious crime. Some of them disband when they become financially unprofitable. Some of them die out gradually by a process of attrition. A few end in violent cataclysm as at Jonestown or Waco.

      It would also be possible for a cult to undergo a programme of radical reform, evolving back into something like a mainstream church. That would be the least traumatic solution for most members but it very rarely happens, because in organisations like the Hales fellowship the only people with the influence to make it happen are the very people who would lose a lot if it did happen. It would need someone with the courage, conviction and charisma of a Martin Luther.

      Delete
  7. Well I'm sure the PBCC would be thrilled with all this dialogue and argy bargy. What about debating their lies! Which is what this article was all about. This is about truth. Not bullshit. Which is what they peddle.

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    Replies
    1. Dear Anonymous 15 June 2014 01:17,

      Sometimes I think that the PBCC, its leaders and members mislead others out of ignorance rather than malice. I have often asked myself, "If Bruce D Hales, Daniel Hales or Garth Christie really knew what they were talking about, would they ever say such a thing?"

      I think ignorance is a major problem which these Brethren still have to address. Their theological, ecclesiastical and cultural isolation tends to mean that they declare as fact, or as 'righteous' or an issue of conscience, matters which the general reader knows to be false and untrue.

      Two examples which trouble me particularly will suffice.

      First, Bruce D Hales teaches the Brethren that higher education is "narrowing" - a laughable statement, and particularly worrying when it comes from the mouth of a religious leader. He presumably doesn't know that higher and lifelong education is enriching for the individual student and enhances the life of the whole Christian community.

      Second, I'm concerned about what these Brethren say about the rôle of women. I recall that Daniel Hales commented in an interview that women were more prominent in the Brethren meeting than women were in other churches. In speaking like that, he showed himself ignorant of the fact that many Protestant churches have women clergy, including in some cases bishops, and that trained and willing lay women participate in the conduct of all kinds of ministry in their congregations, either in services or pastorally, on an equal footing with men. After all, Phoebe was a deacon at Cenchreae, Prisca was a fellow worker of the apostle Paul and Junia was an apostle - and that was nearly two thousand years ago.

      I would hope that Bruce D Hales and his fellow leaders (all men, I think) would determine to banish ignorance so that they can talk and write confidently from the basis of a sound education in all matters. In my opinion, it's only that way that they can hope to gain respect as consistently truthful and thoughtful people.

      Delete
    2. Joan,
      I agree - I think the brethren have lived in splendid isolation for so long that they do not actually realise how harmful their behaviour is. They really believe they are doing the right thing, and they really believe they act with compassion!! In that respect, they are almost to be pitied, except that ignorance is no excuse for hurtful behaviour, and they do not seem to listen when people try to tell them.

      Delete
  8. I am astounded at the following which again - clearly a lie- is published on their new shiny website, under the section that deals with so called 'myths'. I am currently frustrated that they are ABOVE the law, and im fed up of reading such rubbish and having believe such rubbish from these people. This was their response to the myth about 'not paying taxes':

    "Anonymous (the first) – we just don’t think like this, it woulnd’t enter our heads!! We deal righteously and dodging the law isn’t our way of life, it would not be an option for us to act this way."

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  9. People deciding to go to war.....are not intelligent people in general - they are greedy. Just like leaders of the EB; doing it for their own personal gain. In the case of war, its usually some resource such as oil, in the EB leadership....its all money. Only have to look at the case of George Bush, to see that intelligence, doesnt equal going to war!!!


    And by the way.....you may be 'getting away with it' so far.....but I and many others KNOW WHAT YOUR UP TO!! And if there is a God.....he will know too. And I very much doubt he would find that your type of behaviour acceptable! In fact, if its the same God I have read about (more fully than you have), he would think it was downright evil. So no difficulty working out where your final destination would be (if I was a believer...). Fortunately, I am not. But there are plenty of well meaning, 'good christians' out there....who believe in heaven and hell, rights and wrongs etc, and do not 'manipulate' the bible (as often) to suit themselves.

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  10. "They say -Many Brethren are employed by non-Brethren businesses.
    The Truth - show me one! I was thrown out for refusing to work for a Brethren business - but had to get out due to poor treatment."

    To be fair. These days at least.Some brethren do work for non-Brethren.There is some Brethren whom are working for non-Brethren ,where i live.

    But i agree, the brethren would still quite likely be inclined to try controlling who someone would decide to work for.I guess because they have fear that people could be more easily led astray

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  11. Its more the other way round; i.e. we all work for the brethren, but get kicked out if we 'dont fit the ethos'.....regardless of what the law dictates, as brethren fly below the radar, and dont seem to 'count' in terms of law....somehow.....fair that isnt it.

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  12. Anonymous15 June 2014 16:35 said "People deciding to go to war.....are not intelligent people in general - they are greedy."

    You think greedy people are never intelligent?.I think you are wrong. Intelligent people can be all sorts.Including the fact that highly intelligent people can be the sort of people who will sometimes say and do some very stupid things.

    As to the rest of what you said.I wont even bother to answer it in any real great detail.Suffice to say i feel i have no need to fear God,especially considering what you and your friends are more than likely to be like.But anyway, personally i don't see much point in arguing too far, with someone who seems to believe greedy people can never also be intelligent.But just out of interest, i will ask you,do you tend to consider yourself as being someone who is highly intelligent?

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  13. Taking matters into own hands.....look out for posters / leaflets at the following places: Universities, public libraries, public transport, public places of worship (namely spiritualist...), public eating places, and other places of public interest.

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  14. The comment was about war; you were trying to concede that intelligent people decide to go to war. They dont. All people who have gone to war are greedy, and after resources of one form or another. Hope that explains it. And Satan will be waiting for you, dont worry.

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    Replies
    1. Anonymous19 June 2014 05:06 said The comment was about war; you were trying to concede that intelligent people decide to go to war.

      I had said "How many times have some extremely wise men and women,happened to make some very grave mistakes,that had then cost many lives in wars.Sometimes because they were unprepared to care to listen to other people"

      Nowhere did i say anything about "people deciding to go to war" . I had said wise men make mistakes.And i said intelligence can become ,like its become someone worst enemy.

      I still stand by these claims.There is other people whom also believe that its true .See here for instance http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/10-smart-people-dumb-things.htm

      The person attacking my claim here, is quite likely my own brother.Someone whom cannot handle hearing the truth.This brother would be joyful to see me burn in hell.For that is exactly the kind of brother he is

      There is miles of evidence available suggesting my claim is correct. See here http://kurtkleiner.com/stories/ut.why.smart.people.do.stupid.things.html

      Its a well known fact. Wise men can act really foolishly.People can be intelligent without being rational.

      Delete
  15. In its influence on the tendency to go to war, democracy seems to matter more than intelligence. It is almost unheard of for two democratic countries to go to war with each other. Brethren who have denounced democracy might usefully think about that.

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    Replies
    1. When war threatens.It is inevitable.Sometimes intelligent people will be those whom decide to go to war.And intelligent people can also be greedy.I'd say Julius Caesar was intelligent,and quite likely greedy too.

      My brother is an intelligent person.But intelligent people can sometimes act irrationally. Not that my brother will ever care to admit it

      But i agree with you that democracy seems to matter more than intelligence.I think democracy would also be something to want to include freedom of speech.And the right of human to differ in opinion.Do you? think so

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  16. I repeat Mr Anonymous; you are missing the point, and clearly 'one of them'....the comment was about war; you were trying to concede that intelligent people decide to go to war. They dont. All people who have gone to war are greedy, and after resources of one form or another. And yes, democratic countries tend to be the greedy ones. There was never any mention of intelligent people not being greedy, or greedy people not being intelligent; your comment was specifically regarding war and intelligence - pay attention.

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  17. How the hell did a debate on WAR get into this thread? We were debunking their lies. I've got a feeling I'm wasting my time - which is a pity. We had them on the ropes - exposed for their indemic dishonesty.

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    1. Anonymous19 June 2014 23:26

      Keep your hair on sport.It happens.Threads get off topic all the time.Its quite normal practice.Don't fret,the sky wont fall in on your head.Peoples face to face conversations can sometimes get off topic as well.There is umpteen dozens of other blogs online,where discussions can get off topic too.

      If you look at the next thread,you'll see where Joan is busy apologizing, for fear of getting off topic.That's because people like you tend to make such a big deal of it, as if its some huge sin.

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  18. Sorry, that was my fault. Im not coming to this site anymore. But it has been interesting, so thanks.

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